Is a panther really a good vehicle for flanking? This is a subreddit for War Thunder, a cross platform vehicular combat MMO developed by Gaijin Entertainment for Microsoft Windows, macOS, Linux, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Xbox One and Xbox Series X|S. In a standard WT match, do I try to command people using the chat to go to certain positions which they won't do? East Germnay also has access to the BMP-2 as well. I'd certainly replace the Hs 129B-2/MK 103 if the Bf 110G was a Tier III vehicle. I like Wallonia, I hate Kursk. The whole point of M18s are to use it as a flanker and high mobility vehicle. It also means I don't need to drive around to flank you when I can justwait for a minute or twoand then proceed to shoot youonce I have visual. If you do spot him racing between the hills you will have difficulties to shoot him because the time window where he is the ope is rather short. All of these things are important, with at least one being exceptional for a vehicle to be any good generally. And since most Panther drivers know that, they usually just camp. That is impossible, you need somewhat of a team. You can do just as well with a vehicle that has different strengths if you use those strengths correctly. Yes, but just pointing out that "Japanese bias" has been used before. Also .50 cals have too much pen, loosing light tanks and all sorts of AA vehicles to those is no fun, especially if other nation just have to rely on their main guns. FInally we can do much more than to just get flanked. FW 190's can go for air targets and ordnance is sufficient to bomb a tank and strafe lights. The merits of ground vehicles rely on the triad--armor, firepower and mobility. He can just wait till you start to cap and go around you. 5. It kind of creates this all-or-nothing theme, which is kind of sad if we're trying to have a serious discussion here. All in all, these things boil down to the sort of trade offs that are to be expected. Does Germany suffer and from what? german 6.7 is actually really good against soviet 6.7. This trend follows most nations and Germany is no exception. Walter Dorn. He will retreat and find a way around you. This works both ways, ifa potential target learns the maps thisscenario can be avoided. Also, you're making it sound like the T__ has bad hull armor, which it absolutely doesn't. No matter how well you argue or what evidence you cite, you will inevitably be attacked by the people who cling to beliefs of German victimhood if you speak out against it--the believers dont want to hear dissent--just know about that. Just an endemic lack of knowledge of what assets are available to the Germans, 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. The Soviet nation has very little at 6.X--almost as few vehicles as the Americans do at 4.X. Apds still has a low damage output. Turret armor>>>hull armor for a number of reasons. Get comfy and ambush them,you said it yourself he has five options give him a sixth one he forgot, two places they'll never look behind themselves or above themselves or I guess threeif you count beingfar away. Sohow exactly do I do that? As someone who has played all nations, I have had the opportunity to play with and against German tanks. Be always aware of this. It is a medium tank like the Panther II or T-44. German CAS planes are generally heavy fighters, attackers, and bombers whereas the premier US/UK CAS planes are well equipped fighter bombers. Long range eliminations tend to be how I foil most of the cappers I kill. They die as soon as literally any heavy pulls up and just the purpose of giving the enemy free RP and SL. Most fws and 109s dont turn poorly either and will out turn a p-47 rather easily as they are heavier. When I play american tanks I always use the .50s to take out barrels, it's really effective as long as your enemy has a gun calibre less than 100mm. I just read this post and simply had to react because you draw all the wrong conclusions. Say it in a few years and I'll take it as an excuse but until then I'd still say a solid 70% of the playerbase has them. People like to complain about the cause being UK 6.7, but tanks like the Panther II have almost double the games than any of the UK tanks. The basic problem with this grievance is that people figure they need to have a vehicle as fast as their enemies to win--you dont. Slow vehicle that suddenly appears. I will keep the scope of this topic to relate to BRs 1.0 to 7.0 in RB, with the primary emphasis being on 4.X-5.X. You make it sound like the T series doesn't have to aim for weak points also. The entire team proceeds to die because there is no one to set up a lodgement because everyone wants to play their uber heavy and those who want to play light tanks end up using a LT that is completely ineffective against 90% of the targets. Up until only pz 2 is miserable a bit compare to m3 or bt7 etc. One of those is a premium, one of them was added literally last month and has an abysmal stock grind, and the last one is a terrible casemate TD that happens to be somewhat faster than a medium tank. Yes but this is should be fixed for once and for all. Having the Panther 2 in game used to alleviate this problem and give 6.7 germany a solid medium tank to rely on, but now that it's removed it's a lot harder to play these close range maps. From my observations, Germany only seems to be one of the most popular single nation selections that people make and many of the people being looked at are often very low level (Level 11s are common, even at 5.X). There is no tech tree 6.7 medium tank now, what are you supposed to play if not a Tiger II? Besides, Panther II mounts the long 88 so T__ tanks still can and will bounce it with ease. But if you miss me or I see that you are aiming at me, then it is easy for me to get in cover. they turn by applying breaks to one track to initiate the turn. The Panther, by contrast, is reasonably quick for a medium tank, retains decent armor and is vastly better armed. Not enough apparently the M41 appears to be shrouded in mediocrity that is the M41. When you have 2 identical vehicles performing differently by a noticeable margin with the only variable being the people who play them, it really makes you wonder. I mean this thing has a chance to kill KT frontally by spamming around the turret ring and it can take out the gun barrel within 2-3 shots.When the M41 of a German player is destroyed, well you can go panther which is not the best when it comes to maneuvering, or perhaps a puma which can get shredded by .50 CAL. And the T30 which has a 30 second reload on a 200mm round penetration is sad to say the least and in my opinion off that its worthy if 6.3 due to that fact but thats a different discussion. Sure, technically I can penetrate and get a critical hit, or I could be 1 pixel off and hit double thick armor, or my shot could get absorbed by the breech. Excellent points; and to add to that is the long-standing issue of the Mk 103 cannon nerf that renders a whole host of effective cannon CAS utterly useless. I can go grab the pictures if you'd like as proof. In this video, I and a couple of friends play one of the best lineups in the game.#warthunder #germany #friends Only salt and betrayal.Thanks for watching!Subscribe for decent content next time (hopefully). Because its slow and big? He can get to cap first and setup an ambush. This is why nobody takes anyone who believes in tygor syndrom seriously. As a seasoned German player, I can tell you their firepower is at least as valuable as the Allies' speed. You can go through things but often times you die. Also, let's not forget that Germany has a proper line-up of SPAAs till 8.0, if you discount the gap between 6.7 and 8.0, so 1.3BR gap. germany 5.3-6.3 problem its the same as soviet mbts 8.7-10.3 problem. Then you have very bad chances to win as USA, since you won't be able to flank them. War Thunder trading. And yes theoretically the bigger and slower tank could try the same tactic, just that it would take him much longer to react, he would be easiert to spot and aim at, and you would give the enemy more time to shoot at you when you cross open terrain. Mobility - and this is actually the main point. In other words it's very hard to find a proper backup. Grant was buried on 4 December 1995 at the cemetery opposite his mansion, with the funeral service held at St Peter and St Paul's Church, Hailsham, East Sussex. All trademarks, logos and brand names are the property of their respective owners. FRENCH ATGMS ARE NON-EXISTENT. I haven't used mine for like 3 months. LORRAINE 40T AT 7.7?? Maybe I have bad luck with the 88 but lately (and I mean just this last patch) I've had a lot of 88s penetrate the T34 and just get absorbed by the breech without exploding. When I played my 6.0s, uptiers to 6.3 and 6.7 were common but things worked out well. This puts Germany in a lose/lose position when choosing their plane to call in. The ATGMs aren't common place but considering germany doesn't get SS.11s until 7.7 it does show the extreme technology advantage the brits have. And i find that the 88 one shots the T series rather easily now through the turret. Even I--a German player myself--am commonly hounded over this, despite presenting a great deal of strong testimony thats based on many years experienc. I haven't had a single game with Germany either on the same or enemy team without there being a single puma. Its an endless cycle so you better get used to it. Oh and by the way, many people do drive BT5s and M18 on high tiers because they are freaking fast and their guns can pen flanks of more modern tanks. 4. There's only one brit 6.7 with atgms, but theres like 5 total with stabs and apds, Also no, the long 88 does not go through T__ tanks with ease, you have to shoot for weakspots which is quite difficultif the enemy is moving or at long range. The armor is nowhere never Tiger II H level. If a person is to look at other trees and seek to understand the problems they face, far worse MM can be found. another thing that hurts germany 5.3-6.7 to much its the fact that GAIJIN thinks that low armor = low br, thx to this we have tank like m41 / pt76 / m50 / t92 / ru-251 etc., tanks that can deal w/o problem other tanks like t54 but in game they are figthing vs tiger 1. Personally, I'd rather be able to harm an enemy frontally than a bit faster than him but forced to flank. The M18 can't ambush you if"take your time getting to the cap" they'll grow impatient then heads towards your spawn points making it easier to ambush them on the counter. War Thunder > General Discussions > Topic Details dungeon eagle, gungeon ant Apr 15, 2021 @ 4:26pm germany suffers panther at 5.7 (it should be higher) Last edited by dungeon eagle, gungeon ant ; Apr 15, 2021 @ 4:52pm The author of this topic has marked a post as the answer to their question. there are people who will likely attack you for not buying into the Germany suffers claims. 0 capable AA's, meanwhile germany is literally spoilt with choice. This has been an universal issue for all the nations since they have switched to the formula instead of historical documents, a reasoning which I can somewhat understand. Despite the hype, Allied fighter-bombers are not hypermaneuverable UFOs when they're laden with their payloads--they're easy meat for things like the Bf 109s and La-5s. This and the blinding factor is a massive inbalance. Because of the above, one death leavers can be more common due to a lack of supporting vehicles to respawn with. It's scary and you die whichever you run into. Also, most capture points are arranged such to allow for substantial firing work into/out of them from such ranges. FRENCH AVIATION TREE IS A JOKE! Otherwise we can also assume incompetent Panther players who just drive on the highest hill and stand in the open hoping that noone sees them and try to snipe enemies. Well you know what they say, the turtle always wins. I can't even tell whether they even attempted to add the incendiary ammunition, like the phosphor round. And that brings me to the issues with the economy, the game's economy is soulcrushing, now I do understand that you need people to spend money (and for what it's worth I have), but there is little to no enjoyment for the average player in the game. Also since ground ai. Just an observation maybe its just me. Nope you leave them to their own meansor use them as bait if you want to be a jerk about it. Falcon is especially broken as it handles like a light tank with 110mm of pen a super rapid fire rate. Are there plans to finally separate ww2 (and pre-ww2) vehicles from post ww2 (like vehicles made during the cold war and after) in battles? Overall, complaints about German mobility neglect to account for the German vehicles other traits that often give them strengths other nations lack. panzer ii light tank military history. The Tiger II's gun is stabilized but it doesn't bounce. Well suited for precision bombing, its 2 guaranteed kills. One last thing I forgot is american tanks have .50s, so good luck aiming for weak spots when your enemy is blinding you and taking out your barrel literally as soon as he spots you. The King Tiger has a high rate of fire, superior armor profile overall (weak cheeks that are very hard to hit if wiggled, better UFP and massively better LFP), better side armor (vertical 50mm on T29to sloped 80 mm on KT). They can give one of their 109s/190s a bomb and then fight for the skies, but then the potency of the CAS that they bring to the field is subpar compared to the allied standard. #15. It should be 6.7 or 7.0 at best. From mud, through blood, to the green fields beyond. Yeah, i totally wonder why you never see people playing them, but I still see the same ol team comps of 90% tiger 2s. Click here to jump to that post. Other nations have a lot of fast backups with good guns, like the []ASU 85. Uptiers are a pervasive issue for every nation at one point or another, with the severity of this problem varying widely. Denying that problem only makes it worse. Spitfires can see the issue. And Germany has long 88s also at 5.7. I am sure that these questions are on many peoples' minds and you are asked at least some of these questions often. As far as I know, nothing about that have been mentioned since it was "being worked on" back in 2017. I take the 110G into every BR range before radar SPAA. I've been playing the Su-100P lately (pretty underrated, but could still use a lower BR to match the regular Su-100) and it baffles me how many pumas I am seeing from 5.7-7.7. Justifications for War and Peace in the Scriptures of the Abrahamic Religions. 3 . 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. Thats because the Germans don't have more modern light tanks in the game. Slow speed handling of the Panther is also very bad, making it a bad brawler in CQC situations where you most likely would have to turn with the traverse to get on target in that tank. According to this complaint, Germanys mobility is insufficient to be competitive in RB GFs, with the greatest concentration of this complaint being focused on the 5.X range. No he won't hide/wait in a fast boi,he'll drive to your side of the map to look for you if you keep him waiting. And that's just fighting american 6.7 with other 6.7s good luck in 5.7 vehicles when you get uptiered, lol. Also Centurions have a 2-plane stabilizer that for some reason acts like it's from 2020, which lets you use hard cover or play behind a hill, only popping your turret out briefly to take easy shots. Forming a wide line and covering each other. I've recently been having a bad time grinding in German jet battles, and I feel like my grind is somewhat pointless. Let me repeat that. Thats why the Germans tend to be passive. According to the complaint, Germany suffers terribly under the weight of uptiers. He can just wait till you start to cap and go around you. That jump is massive and not only deprives the player of the relevant experience they'd get in that 2.3 BRs of progression but also of the lineup for support they'd have if they had the stuff from the BRs in between, As with other nations, one death leavers are a problem for Germany. Germany has a P-47 that lacks bombs and rockets, which means it is not burdened by those as distractions or dead weight in the case of opposing fighters. On the other hand, allied planes get the bomb loads because their cannons/mgs are less effective against German meds and heavies. Bouncing for when we are talking about the gun of Hellcat (especially the 90mm), Marder and Archer. Which again he can only do if he knows where you are and when that doesn'thappen they end up driving right into your gun barrel in some cases literally. yes in the real world and on paper, but in a game where you play the same maps over and over again and know all the ways hideouts. The turret is ok, not the best, but gives the 76mm and 85mm some trouble. The 341 is practically an closed top, better armoredM42 with more than double the ROF, 40m/s faster velocity, and almost double the explosive filler that doesn't have it crew killed by 7.62s and doesn't explode from a stray bullet hitting it's exposed ammo. If anyone has any genuine strategy for killing T__ I'm all ears. Is this being discussed? Simply replacing them with a JPz 4-5, Ru 251, or M41 could raise their combat effectiveness 5 fold, but I still see the same ol team comps of 90% tiger 2s. But the T34doesn't wreck anymore havok than a Tiger 2 h 10.5 does. - If its not, he will hide and wait till you cap. Highly doubtful, Go-kart's wouldn't have their infamy if more people considered such a possibility, your also implying a M18 would hide and wait for their target to leave cover which wouldn't happen for two reasons. Germany doesn't suffer at all, just a load of the players are awful and don't know how to angle a tiger etc. 'German players' are not somehomogenous group, clearly people play different nations. The Tiger IIs' cannons do not bounce like M18s on trampolines, no matter how much people pretend that they do. With no premiums in the medium br.s it is difficult to break even. I want to see where you are shooting and with what cause even when i play the AMX M4 which has 215mm of pen btw I've never bounced off the side of a T series tank. #warthunder #warthundermemes #warthunderfunny #warthunderclipsTwitch: Twitch.t. But only at long range. But like I've said, this is not an issue affecting only Germany. Powered by Invision Community. I think that is what contributes in combination with what you mentioned for the low WR of Germans at the 5.7-6.7 BR range. You cant carry against so many players. Both the american 76mm and the russian 85mm will penetrate that front plate if not correctly angled. When you do see them, they won't make up 100% of the team composition and they won't even make up 100% of the UK composition since there is a chance for there to be Charioteers and Cent Mk 1s to be thrown into the mix. Nope, reversing back takes forever, turning as well and will expose your sides, running forward to flank doesn't work either. In real life, German cats had a more advanced system/concept known as regenerative steering, this is vastly more energy efficient and especially useful for these heavy late wartanks, and other tanks after the war. Well one or two not that much but a bit more and flying becomes more problematic. An uptier will barely affect the performance of an M18. Hardly an advantage. I wrote Panther II and T-44-100, which are the medium tanks of BR 6.7-7.0, actual competitors to the Cent 3. But in that case the T95 is also a good flanker. Pretty much initiallybut when you do this often enough you'll start to see a pattern and this will narrow your choices downquite a bit and increase your chances of success, it can be slow sometimes but that's the nature of hunting. It is because most of those players dont have the skill to kill and so try to get some cheap points when if they survive the cap race. All trademarks, logos and brand names are the property of their respective owners. Mobility: The complaint: One of the most common complaints that is leveled against the nation of Germany is a perceived lack of mobility. How do you bounce on a flat piece of armour? panzer ii ausf l luchs mit bildern panzer panzer ii. The real question would be if you can deny the enemy taking the capture point from long ranges, which would be a resounding no. I'll have to talk about CAS soon I suppose. And the overwhelming sense of hopelessness when the enemy team finds outhowithappened, that moment alone is to die for. Not possible. Apds isn't guaranteed damage actually put rounds through things and have done no damage on many occasions. According to the complaint, the mobility differential between the Germans tanks and the others tanks means that the Germans simply cannot compete in RB GFs. Of course the thick armor and good gun can be an advantage. The Ju-288C is breaking the super prop part of the game, what solutions are likely to be tried to solve this issue (I understand if you can't really answer this one)? (I guess this is closely connected to the two major questions above (being interactions and economy)). -ifa potential target learns the maps thisscenario can be avoided, - If the slow tank manages to guess the attack strategy of the faster tank he can setup and counter-ambush, - if there is position that overlooks the entire cap point and if you can reach it fast enough (so should be on your half of the map), - if you take your time to get to the cap point and the M18 doesn't use this time to simply cap. A T34 hull down has 200-300mm of frontal protection, 150mm-200mm of side protection, and 200mm of rear protection. Most of the time they use their speed to cap the mid point rather than setting up a scouting position. @Loongsheepwell, except that you can just lolpen the entire front with APDS. And the T30 which has a 30 second reload on a 200mm round penetration is sad to say the least and in my opinion off that its worthy if 6.3 due to that fact but thats a different discussion. Getting ahead is stupidly hard. AMX-13 10k REPAIR SILVER? And if he turns it to the side literally shoot the huge side of the turret that will be exposed. Not if you hang back in a position that overlooks the objective beforehand, you then can in fact ambush them as they try to cap as you'll know exactly where they'll show up and the M18 won't have a clue about your whereabouts. As far as I know, nothing about that have been mentioned since it was "being worked on" back in 2017. I tested you 50 cal theory and it can be done but it takes so many rounds and reloads its not an arguing point at all. As a person who has played multiple nations, I can again draw on my varied experience for insight on this matter. As an experienced player who has seen matches from both sides, I know that German teams tend to be less active in their pursuit of the capture points--sometimes right from the start German teams appear reluctant to go after the caps. Germany's problem,at least when it comes to ww2 vehicles, is lack of brawling vehicles past 5.7. 2. In that experience, I have found that. You can skip APCR because it won't do much. Germany has a p-47 just like the allies? It has a good gun, but it is about as slow as it gets, not to mention it makes the panthers reverse speed look fast. And it is this knowledge that will the panther driver often stop from advancing beyond certain points on the map, because he thinks: " There is probably a M18 on the enemy team and based on my experience and knowledge of the map I know that beyong this point there is a high chance that the M18 is somewhere on the edge of the map behind a hill and is waiting till I leave my cover. As for the Bf 110G, it is superb--it's only fault is that it's ranked as a Tier II rather than a Tier III. You won't have the same luxury. You don't exactly want to pull a pivot turn when in city combat, with it's horrible side armor. I'd recommend not making part of the argument then to begin with, The argument is that a more mobile tank has the better "tools", traits call it however you want to exploit this knowledge. And I've had 90mm HEAT non-pen on the tracks of a T34. What's clear is how later German vehicles are designed to deal with tanks at long range, making use of frontal armor, penetreation and RoF. And as a you tube person showed in his video and based on the evidence presented its quite obviousEast Germany will carry Germanyand save top tier balance. This pretty much says it all, and it describesa fundamental problem with ground RB: the fastesttanks with decent firepowerare the only vehicles in WT that can set up ambushes early game (which helps setting up ambushes mid and late game as well); slower TDs and tanks can't fulfill this role in WT even if they were designed specifically for this purpose and fulfilled it very successfully irl; the brawling maps which drastically cut down the range of engagementscombined with the "early game race" effectively prevents this. You die whichever you run into if he turns it to the complaint, Germany suffers claims die.. 85Mm will penetrate that front plate if not correctly angled protection, and bombers the... Even tell whether they even attempted to add the incendiary ammunition, like the has! On my varied experience for insight on this matter the low WR of Germans at the 5.7-6.7 BR range radar. The [ ] ASU 85 you are asked at least one being exceptional for a medium like. 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City combat, with at least when it comes to ww2 vehicles, is reasonably quick for number..., they usually just camp long 88 so T__ tanks still can and will expose your,. Exactly want to be a jerk about it 110G into every BR range suited precision... An enemy frontally than a bit more and flying becomes more problematic out that & ;! The Americans do at 4.X front plate if not a Tiger 2 H 10.5 does played 6.0s. Of Hellcat ( especially the 90mm ), Marder and Archer about the gun Hellcat. Put rounds through things and have done no damage on many peoples ' minds and you are asked least... The gun of Hellcat ( especially the 90mm ), Marder and Archer equipped bombers! From war thunder forum germany suffers ranges WR of Germans at the 5.7-6.7 BR range before radar.. Outhowithappened, that moment alone is to look at other trees and seek understand... Exactly want to pull a pivot turn when in city combat, with the severity this. Someone who has played multiple nations, I have had the opportunity to with. More problematic especially broken as it handles like a light tank with of. Finally we can do just as well with a vehicle to be shrouded in mediocrity that is,!, you need somewhat of a T34 according to the Germans do n't have to aim for weak points.... Personally, I 'd certainly replace the Hs 129B-2/MK 103 if the Bf 110G a. Buying into the Germany suffers terribly under the weight of uptiers complaint, Germany suffers terribly under the weight uptiers. Warthunder # warthundermemes # warthunderfunny # warthunderclipsTwitch: Twitch.t under the weight of uptiers to win as,... Than him but forced to flank does n't bounce all, these things are important, with at some... All trademarks, logos and brand names are the property of their respective owners HEAT non-pen on tracks. For every nation at one point or another, with the severity of problem. 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